Every now and then I still stumble upon something which is so cohesive and well expression on an issue which has been buzzing around me and it knocked my socks off and gives me something to chew over.

I found two such things over the weekend.
This is the first which lead to the other it is on the nature of ‘boys’ ( cos they are not mature enough to be men ) who say that they are ‘Nice Guys’ and use that to not look at themselves or thier behaviour they affirm this as much as they can and will tell people that they are ‘Nice Guys’ so that when stuff happens it’s never their fault.

http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html

The whole is well worth reading, some of the parts which stood out for me were.

The Nice Guy usually has some glaringly big issues in his life that he isn’t dealing with– things that make him unhappy, but rather than address them, he is convinced that if only he could be with someone, everything would magically get better. (Yeah, guess what, it doesn’t. You still need to get a job/move into a better place/go back to school/get therapy/clean your toejam/tell your parents to piss off/whatever it is.) For a Nice Guy, all the responsibility for his happiness lies with his future partner. And he *will* put the burden on her, as well as guilting the hell out of her if she gets fed up with mommying him.

Nice Guys think it is enough for them to be so nice, so sweet, so attentive. Because it is enough, they think it’s ok to let other stuff slide. Like it doesn’t matter if they have good hygiene, because a girl who cares so much about exteriors is shallow and hypocritical if she can’t see past a layer of funk to the shining prince beneath. They don’t think it’s important to develop much in the way of social skills or good manners (although some of them do have a certain amount of charisma). They never stop to ask themselves whether the fact that they haven’t dated anyone since 1997 might have something to do with their annoying behaviors or poor sense of humor. In fact, they see no reason to make any extra effort to improve themselves or present themselves well at all– because they’re SO VERY NICE.

Conversely, though, most Nice Guys only fall for a fairly limited range of “hot” chicks. It’s because women are all about the status for them, and they are out to prove something to the world. Some of them will deliberately only go after women who are fairly unattainable, if their martyr complex needs some care and feeding.

Nice Guys usually are crap at reading body language and nonverbal cues and usually have serious personal space problems. Women get creeped out because they feel like the guy is literally clinging to them, or is coming on really strong really fast, or doesn’t seem to pick up on the fact that they’re tensing up or moving away. But since the Nice Guy *knows* he has good intentions, he is deeply insulted by the suggestion that his behavior is unwelcome, creepy, or even threatening. (Whereas a genuine nice guy who misreads a situation is horrified that he might have come across that way and apologizes for it.)

Nice Guys are not patient. This is tricky, again, because sometimes they can *seem* very patient, but in reality they are always chomping at the bit to get into their chosen target’s pants. And once they’ve made a move, they are all about the instant gratification. They demand response NOW. They expect and will pressure or guilt a woman into giving them a chance. It’s all or nothing, and if she says no, chances are good the friendship is dead in the water. If it continues, it’s almost guaranteed that it’s because he doesn’t believe she means no, and intends to regroup and try again.

Nice Guys don’t actually care what a woman wants, which is one of the keys to identifying a Nice Guy vs. a nice guy, and which runs directly counter to their most deeply held beliefs about themselves. They think that they are great, caring, compassionate partners; usually, they just want a captive audience. They don’t have much respect for what her desires and preferences are unless they are for him, because if she wants something different than him, it is attributed to her dysfunction and desire to be treated badly by an asshole. They may spend some time with pick-up books and things that tell them how to get chicks, but they tend to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit. That’s why he’ll serenade you on a subway platform even though he knows you don’t like to call attention to yourself, and then be hurt that you were uncomfortable and embarrassed by the display. He likes to make a big show out of being romantic and considerate, especially when others are watching, but he will still forget to pick up his socks even if you’ve told him you’d rather have a clean floor than roses delivered to your office.

But the real foolproof way to identify a Nice Guy is to watch how he treats a woman who turns him down romantically. A true-blue Nice Guy invariably will unleash the scorn and contempt and resentment that’s been seething under the surface all along, and excoriate the woman he claimed to care about. One of the favored maneuvers is to retreat behind sarcasm, claim that whatever she found unwelcome was “just a joke”, and defensively inform her that she has no sense of humor, that she’s taking everything way too seriously. Once in a while he’ll try to keep being friends– especially if he thinks there’s another chance in it for him– but he’ll let fly with the snarky comments about her, the passive-aggressive “humor” that always points back to her rejection of him, and especially so if she shows interest in anyone else. He’s just waiting for that romance to fail so that he can say, “see, she rejects ME when I would’ve treated her right, but runs after that asshole instead, and now she got hurt. I could’ve told her that would happen!” And you will never hear a Nice Guy say anything gracious about a guy who dates a woman who rejected him.

The most insidious part of it is the way that Nice Guys turn everything back on the girl, make it all her fault. If she doesn’t want to date him– poor, poor him! What sort of shallow bitch must she be to want a relationship but not with him? Coincidentally, this tactic can sometimes score him a sympathy fuck if he’s got a backup girl to run to.

The absolute key difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy is that the nice guy truly likes and respects women and doesn’t feel entitled to the attentions of any woman. The Nice Guy pretends to be that, but secretly he has decided that all women suck (usually for the sins of a couple of them), and he doesn’t really care about anything so much as propping up his limp ego.

The Nice Guy usually has some glaringly big issues in his life that he isn’t dealing with– things that make him unhappy, but rather than address them, he is convinced that if only he could be with someone, everything would magically get better. (Yeah, guess what, it doesn’t. You still need to get a job/move into a better place/go back to school/get therapy/clean your toejam/tell your parents to piss off/whatever it is.) For a Nice Guy, all the responsibility for his happiness lies with his future partner. And he *will* put the burden on her, as well as guilting the hell out of her if she gets fed up with mommying him.

Nice Guys think it is enough for them to be so nice, so sweet, so attentive. Because it is enough, they think it’s ok to let other stuff slide. Like it doesn’t matter if they have good hygiene, because a girl who cares so much about exteriors is shallow and hypocritical if she can’t see past a layer of funk to the shining prince beneath. They don’t think it’s important to develop much in the way of social skills or good manners (although some of them do have a certain amount of charisma). They never stop to ask themselves whether the fact that they haven’t dated anyone since 1997 might have something to do with their annoying behaviors or poor sense of humor. In fact, they see no reason to make any extra effort to improve themselves or present themselves well at all– because they’re SO VERY NICE.

Conversely, though, most Nice Guys only fall for a fairly limited range of “hot” chicks. It’s because women are all about the status for them, and they are out to prove something to the world. Some of them will deliberately only go after women who are fairly unattainable, if their martyr complex needs some care and feeding.

Nice Guys usually are crap at reading body language and nonverbal cues and usually have serious personal space problems. Women get creeped out because they feel like the guy is literally clinging to them, or is coming on really strong really fast, or doesn’t seem to pick up on the fact that they’re tensing up or moving away. But since the Nice Guy *knows* he has good intentions, he is deeply insulted by the suggestion that his behavior is unwelcome, creepy, or even threatening. (Whereas a genuine nice guy who misreads a situation is horrified that he might have come across that way and apologizes for it.)

Nice Guys are not patient. This is tricky, again, because sometimes they can *seem* very patient, but in reality they are always chomping at the bit to get into their chosen target’s pants. And once they’ve made a move, they are all about the instant gratification. They demand response NOW. They expect and will pressure or guilt a woman into giving them a chance. It’s all or nothing, and if she says no, chances are good the friendship is dead in the water. If it continues, it’s almost guaranteed that it’s because he doesn’t believe she means no, and intends to regroup and try again.

Nice Guys don’t actually care what a woman wants, which is one of the keys to identifying a Nice Guy vs. a nice guy, and which runs directly counter to their most deeply held beliefs about themselves. They think that they are great, caring, compassionate partners; usually, they just want a captive audience. They don’t have much respect for what her desires and preferences are unless they are for him, because if she wants something different than him, it is attributed to her dysfunction and desire to be treated badly by an asshole. They may spend some time with pick-up books and things that tell them how to get chicks, but they tend to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit. That’s why he’ll serenade you on a subway platform even though he knows you don’t like to call attention to yourself, and then be hurt that you were uncomfortable and embarrassed by the display. He likes to make a big show out of being romantic and considerate, especially when others are watching, but he will still forget to pick up his socks even if you’ve told him you’d rather have a clean floor than roses delivered to your office.

But the real foolproof way to identify a Nice Guy is to watch how he treats a woman who turns him down romantically. A true-blue Nice Guy invariably will unleash the scorn and contempt and resentment that’s been seething under the surface all along, and excoriate the woman he claimed to care about. One of the favored maneuvers is to retreat behind sarcasm, claim that whatever she found unwelcome was “just a joke”, and defensively inform her that she has no sense of humor, that she’s taking everything way too seriously. Once in a while he’ll try to keep being friends– especially if he thinks there’s another chance in it for him– but he’ll let fly with the snarky comments about her, the passive-aggressive “humor” that always points back to her rejection of him, and especially so if she shows interest in anyone else. He’s just waiting for that romance to fail so that he can say, “see, she rejects ME when I would’ve treated her right, but runs after that asshole instead, and now she got hurt. I could’ve told her that would happen!” And you will never hear a Nice Guy say anything gracious about a guy who dates a woman who rejected him.

The most insidious part of it is the way that Nice Guys turn everything back on the girl, make it all her fault. If she doesn’t want to date him– poor, poor him! What sort of shallow bitch must she be to want a relationship but not with him? Coincidentally, this tactic can sometimes score him a sympathy fuck if he’s got a backup girl to run to.

The absolute key difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy is that the nice guy truly likes and respects women and doesn’t feel entitled to the attentions of any woman. The Nice Guy pretends to be that, but secretly he has decided that all women suck (usually for the sins of a couple of them), and he doesn’t really care about anything so much as propping up his limp ego.